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frank let me start with you if i may in

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september

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i if if my research is correct it was in

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september of 1968 the unmanned russian

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uh what was that zone 5

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john 5 uh made an orbit of the moon did

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this affect your mission

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i'm not certain whether it affect our

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mission or not i i was told that the cia

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had intelligence that uh they were

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russians were going to try to put a man

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around it before the end of the year and

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that was the reason for the change in

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our mind because after all the apollo

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program was just a battle in the cold

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war that's what it was fundamentally a

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battle in the cold war boy you hammered

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it you hammered the the whole theme of

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my series of questions here

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that's great

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no

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all i have to do is shut up points

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shut up the uh james what was the

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original mission how did it change the

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original mission actually uh was an

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earth orbital mission uh to test the uh

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command module again and the lunar

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module for the first time

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and to make sure that both of them will

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work before we committed them to the

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moon and we'll also do a high-speed

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re-entry uh

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just like we would come back from the

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moon to test out the reentry procedure

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of this super circular type of reentry

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uh and of course uh

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when apollo 7 went 11 days was

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successful and we had some ideas that

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frank mentioned that the

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russians were going to put a man around

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the moon

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and the lunar module was not ready by

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1968 then a very bold decision on the

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part of nasa management

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decided to

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take apollo 8 around the moon well bold

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it was uh uh

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billy

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what would you think the odds of success

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for this bold mission did you did you

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calculate that at all

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well frankly uh i thought

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we had about a one chance in three of

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having a successful mission

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another one chance in three of having a

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mission like apollo 13 where they made

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it back but weren't able to accomplish

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the landing

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then maybe one chance in three of not

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making it back

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well that's pretty chilling those aren't

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very good odds are they well keep in

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mind as frank said

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this was not a program to explore the

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moon or develop technology it was a

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program to demonstrate to the world and

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to ourselves

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that american tech technology was

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preeminent and that we could beat the

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soviets in that regard and that's where

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the new saturn rocket came into this mix

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saturn rocket was necessary in order to

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do this

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the um

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of course they were

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one things and one believes and one has

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been told that the nasa always been very

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fastidious about testing before sending

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any humans

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out on these kinds of missions

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what were there were there concerns

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about using the new saturn after just

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such limited testing

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let me ask you i i didn't have any

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concern with that one of the each

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astronaut had a special they might

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happen to be boosters so i spent a lot

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of time at huntsville

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and helped to to develop the crew escape

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system and so on and they the people at

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huntsville were confident that they had

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been able to correct the difficulties

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that were experienced on the first two

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saturn five flights there had been two

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unmanned flights before

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and the second one was almost a disaster

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but uh they it happened i didn't

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remember well they had a engine shut

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down they had an enormous pogo the uh an

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18-inch beam was uh

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vibrating over a foot it was a real

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disaster but

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they they

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convinced the nasa management and i was

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convinced that they they knew how to

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solve it and they did

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going back to that film we just saw

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there uh jim you were obviously the

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first uh

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men to both leave the earth's

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gravitation and see the dark side of the

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moon you were the first ones to ever do

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that

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you have at the time before you went on

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that mission

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well i think i really didn't have much

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concern i i was sort of happy that that

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decision was made

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and i agree with frank that i didn't

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have any apprehensions about the saturn

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v

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i uh since apollo 7 went around the

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earth for 11 days i thought going to the

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moon would be a natural follow-on

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and

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you know we were three explorers doing

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something entirely different

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we're going the entire distance 240 000

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miles and we're gonna see the far side

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of the moon which we never see the far

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side of course from the earth and so i

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was quite excited about it

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uh it was though and the

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morning when we got to the top of the

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gantry

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and my two companions went into the

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spacecraft first it was still dark out

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and the press

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car started to come and man the station

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and i looked at him and i looked down at

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the ground

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and i said these people are really

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serious

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this is not another earth orbital flight

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going to the moon and that maybe was the

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time when i said well here we go

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i guess you all said here i want to get

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to that picture uh uh bill you were

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talking about this before

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in the uh

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in that film we just saw

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uh that the the earth rising above the

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horizon

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of the

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moon

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uh we saw two pictures there i believe

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of that shot which one was yours or were

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they both yours

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well first of all i like to say that if

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franken had told me about this vibration

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first i heard about it

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the pogo i didn't have i did have my

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actually it's my understanding that the

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uh the first shot was the apollo 11

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earthrise and that the still picture

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was the apollo 8 earthrise

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it must have lent itself to some grand

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thoughts when you saw that the earth

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rising above the horizon of the moon

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what struck me i mean i think we were

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all uh

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you know taken aback because there had

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been no planning discussion

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of seeing the earth

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we were trained

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to a degree to explore the moon to

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comment on the topography and geology if

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you will of the moon

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and when i saw the earth rise and then

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also pictures of the small earth from

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lunar distance

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it crossed my mind that you know here we

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spent all this time studying the moon

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and what we were doing was discovering

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the earth

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tagging onto that then taking it to the

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next step

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which one of you

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or did you do this together decide

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decided to read from genesis

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well the genesis reading about six weeks

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before the flight

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i got a call from julian sher who was

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the head of the

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pio for nasa and his widow is here today

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somewhere i saw her there she is right

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there

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and if you can imagine this julian said

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frank

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you're going to have the largest tv

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audience that's ever listened to a man

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on that broadcast from the moon on

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christmas eve

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i said gee that's nice julian what

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should we do he said anything that's

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appropriate

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you know right there that that was the

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essence of this country we if we'd have

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been soviets we'd have been talking

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about lenin or this or that and i got

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the instructions to tell the crew would

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just do what's appropriate and so i

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i uh frankly i think we were all really

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busy with the flight plan that was the

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last thing on my mind i don't know about

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you guys but i

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contacted a friend of mine cyborg and

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about two weeks before the flight he

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came back with the idea of maybe reading

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from genesis and we all liked it

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and that's how it happened

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almost ad hoc

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but so appropriate

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well just as one of the ones that was

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back here watching

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i may i tell you that that was one of

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the most

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moving

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experiences

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of the entire entire nasa program and

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that is saying a lot that's a

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considerable thing to say

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let me explain a little bit more of what

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frank was talking about because

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cyborgine was trying to think up

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something to say that was appropriate

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which was genesis of course but he

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he went to a newspaper man

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joe layton

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and said look if you write

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articles all the time

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wrote write prose what would be

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appropriate for the following crew

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to say

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and so

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joe layton spent up most of the night

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trying to figure out what would be

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appropriate

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around the moon on christmas eve

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to say to millions of people

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all around

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the earth and finally his wife came

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down and she said what are you doing and

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he told her what his project was

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and she said well it's natural

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read the first 10 verses of genesis

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which is the foundation of most of the

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world's religions not just the christian

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relation but most of the people who be

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listened to you are probably not

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christian and that's how it finally came

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to pass

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well she should get

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a plaque somewhere i think she should

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and thank heaven she didn't say yes